Part riff, part wonder, Joe and Vince talk about how we might be domesticated by our roles to be right and want to let everyone else know we're right, too! And these days, we are more divided than ever. Do we really have the full picture because of our profession, family position, degree and lifelong adventures? Is there such a thing as critical thinking? How do we navigate those times when opinions and viewpoints are running rampant? Can we turn the division into meaningful listening and conversation -- how can you help?
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Vince Kern 0:00
Welcome to another friends in wonder podcast, a place where we invite you to wander with us about meaningful topics without judgment for limits, brought to you by two lifelong friends looking for insights through a lens of how can this help and Joe Luthor, and I'm Vince Kern, and we're your hosts. Now let's wander and wander together. All right, welcome to another podcast. I'm Vince.
Joe Luther 0:27
And I am Joe,
Vince Kern 0:29
how you doing today? Joe?
Joe Luther 0:30
I'm doing great Vince excited once again, to tackle a new topic, but just really enjoying the beautiful. Um, I guess it's still spring, beautiful, early summer day.
Vince Kern 0:41
Yeah, it is great out there. And we just got back from a bit of an excursion you for a week and two weeks for me up in the beautiful up of Michigan. And so it's good to be back here. You know, it's great to get away, get away from television and everything for a while, get off the grid, get off the grid. And now that we're back, you know, been getting back into the daily routine and checking out the news and things like that. And there's a lot going on. And
Joe Luther 1:13
yeah, I know, it's sad when you have to come back from from being off the grid, because there's something just so relaxing. Yeah. You know, if it's just how quiet it is, I think there's probably, you know, issues that we can't even feel like EMFs and whatnot. But just being off the grid, and being away from the buzz is so therapeutic, and then coming back into it can be it's a matter of how long can this recharging. Last, before we get pulled right back into some of the hustle bustle of everyday life?
Vince Kern 1:52
Yeah, you know, coming out of COVID. And getting sort of getting back to reality, there's, you know, we're getting back into these events. And so getting charged up for that type of type of inner relations with society and all of that. And right now, I think a lot of people are talking about a lot of different things and using some muscles that maybe they didn't use during COVID, which is that interpersonal relationship when maybe socializing? Yeah, well, socializing, socializing, and it turns into, you know, politics and whatnot. And, and I think there's a bit of tension right now, obviously, is that we're kind of a divided nation. And, you know, I was thinking about this the other day, and I was thinking about, and this term popped into my head called positional correctness and
Joe Luther 2:39
positional correctness, positional correctness. So it could just be we need another correctness. Right. Right. But I, I'm interested, I know, we talked about this, I'm interested to hear where you're going with this.
Vince Kern 2:51
Well, you know, sometimes you run into conversations, and they just start happening. And and people want to tell you what your position should be. And I think sometimes, it could be your boss, and it could be a sibling, an older sibling, it could be any sibling. But I think there's something that is developed over time where because I'm x, I think I know what's best for you. And so it's, it's an interesting concept.
Joe Luther 3:25
Yeah, and it's especially timely today. Because, you know, coming out of COVID, as you said, you know, in exercising these muscles, these social muscles that we haven't used in a while. We're doing it at a time when it's really a politically charged. You know, environment, not just politically, it's just polarized, I think is really what I meant to say, because it's not just polarized on politics, but it's polarized on so many things. And because of that, people come together and you know, the, they've got these strong opinions. And it can get a little dicey out
Vince Kern 4:09
there, right. We want to have meaningful conversations, we want to come together, we want to be connected as humans. And then this tribalism kind of gets in the way and beyond tribalism, I think positional correctness is this sort of stubbornness to not be open to other views to maybe not even explore other views because you know that you're correct. You might even have been programmed to think that in terms of your childhood, if you're, say an older sibling who's responsible for looking feels responsible for looking after the rest of the flock, right? Or you're a boss and you've been giving people assignments, so therefore, you must be right,
Joe Luther 4:50
right. And I think even your educational status or one's educational status can be weigh in to that too. I know, being educated as a lawyer, sometimes I get ahead of myself and believe that I'm an expert on all things that have to do with, you know, legal matters, although, gosh knows, I run the other way, when people say, Hey, you're a lawyer, can you help me with this? But, you know, I even though I know darn well, I'm not an expert on, on many things. There are times, especially when you get into these charged conversations, like you said, where you feel like your position is correct. Things just get it they get less about, you know, friendly discourse or critical thinking, which is a whole different term, but it just becomes emotional. And it's, it's a little sloppy right now.
Vince Kern 5:48
Yeah. I wonder what critical thinking, you know, when people say critical thinking, I'm like, what does that mean?
Joe Luther 5:55
Yeah, it's, it's actually kind of another word that's a little bit charged, because people are using that, you know, kind of to take a higher ground to say, Oh, you're not thinking critically, or, or let's do some critical thinking as if, you know, they have all the currency when it comes to political correctness or
Vince Kern 6:16
critical thinking, yeah. And then the listener feels already devalued. So
Joe Luther 6:19
in defensive, exactly. So. So yeah, I hesitate to use the critical thinking idea, but only to demonstrate what you're talking about with this positional correctness is that there's such a charged atmosphere out there right now that people are dug in. And they're dug in for a lot of emotional reasons, or, or maybe for reasons that explore a little bit more discussing, which is, you know, what I'm excited to talk about today.
Vince Kern 6:50
Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting, so different people. If you think about positional correctness, you know, do I really care? What the guy down the street? What he what he has to say, as well,
Joe Luther 7:07
when when he puts a sign in his yard, sometimes it triggers, you know, are, you know, if you happen to walk down the street, and, and, you know, he, you know, exposes, you know, exposes about something, hopefully he doesn't expose, but espouses and something. Yeah, I mean, typically, you don't really care what the neighbor down the street thinks. But when you come to a family event, that's a little different.
Vince Kern 7:33
Right? Right. I mean, you know, the neighbor down the street isn't generally knocking on your door, talking about how, you know, politics or whatever. And if they are, you know, maybe you can just kind of get rid of them in humor, um, and you develop your boundaries in your relationships, but like, you know, with family or close friends, it's a little bit different.
Joe Luther 7:54
Yeah, and I just had, I had a real dose of that over the weekend, because my brother's daughter got married. And, of course, you were at the wedding as well. But it was interesting, I, I was just watching and listening and hadn't seen my older sister in a while. And, you know, I hadn't seen a number of nieces and nephews, and, and old friends and even acquaintances, who are friends of my brother, it's, it's just really interesting, because, you know, in the old days, everyone would talk about the weather sports, but people are not hesitant at all, to talk about what they think about what's going on in the world right now. And I think this positional correctness idea is a real good one to talk about. Because, you know, I noticed that a bit with my siblings,
Vince Kern 8:48
yeah, weddings are a great place to see the, it's sort of a microcosm of our culture, right? Because you have all these different people who aren't necessarily always together, but they come into the room with a loving, unified purpose, right, we're there for the groom and bride, and then things turn to
Joe Luther 9:07
bleed to have you have a couple of glasses of champagne, and people will loosen up a little bit. And it isn't long before we're violating that rule to not talk about politics or, you know, just charged discussions at family events.
Vince Kern 9:23
I wouldn't I wonder if it's, you know, sometimes more tension between in terms of the positional correctness, if that creates a little bit more tension among family members and dear friends, you know, because,
Joe Luther 9:37
well, I think for sure, with siblings, like, I'd like you and I both have older sisters. And just from that standpoint, you know, you've got the positional family member who was, you know, the first one, you know, into the, the sibling unit, and, you know, has a different relationship with parents and they and is probably the one first tasked with looking after kids that come come later. So they take on kind of this self identity identified role of being, you know, the substitute mother hand, right,
Vince Kern 10:15
you know, the parents teach the children, the oldest siblings, you know, look after the younger sibling, so, whether consciously or subconsciously, they're, they're sort of doing the same kind of teaching, right, they're totally from
Joe Luther 10:30
a place of love. It's not like a, you know, a dictatorial self, you know, created position, it's more, you know, similar to the mother in that they're being protective, and they're in there trying to, you know, to issue their, their goodness and help for their siblings. But where that can stop is when it comes time to start talking about, you know, what we think about particular ideas,
Vince Kern 11:02
or even, you know, our other siblings who maybe don't share the same ideas as them. And, you know, it's, it's just not an easy conversation. Well, a perfect
Joe Luther 11:10
example for me, just to kind of bring this this theory to, you know, to more of a real case scenario is, you know, my older sister and I started talking about manners it had to do with, well, you know, medical freedom and issues having to do with, you know, vaccine choice and that kind of thing. And our brother, you know, had some pretty strong political views. And I'm not going to get into that, because I don't think that's the point at point of this podcast, I think it's more about how people behave with their strong points of view. And, and so my sister was explaining that she's been getting these texts from my brother texts and emails, she said, they were conspiracy texts. And that kind of perked my interest, because that's another phrase that people are throwing around, you know, kind of easily and with, without really thinking too deeply about it, it's almost become, you know, a pejorative to say, you know, oh, that's a conspiracy theory. Well, I don't, I mean, everything's a conspiracy theory, if you really break it down, but so I, I kind of, you know, I didn't challenge her, but I said, Okay, what exactly do you mean by conspiracy theory? And I said, what, like, was he sending you information about medical issues or about political issues? She said, Well, everything. I said, Well, they're all conspiracy. I mean, I just want to know, better what you mean, when you say, conspiracy? And she said, Well, it's from rumble. And I said, Well, okay, but that's nothing. That means that's a platform like that, that isn't a conspiracy. That's an actual platform, as well, I Wikipedia ID rumble in so the I, because I, you know, it's a little bit of a hot button for me is that there's, you know, I mean, when it comes to Wikipedia, there's, you know, who's, who's in charge of, of Wikipedia, rather than me asking her that. I just said, Oh, Wikipedia is garbage, and they're here I am now, you know, taking my positional correctness as if I have some sort of a, you know, license to determine what she shouldn't be using for her information. And, you know, that was my positional correctness, you know, because I think I have some sort of better understanding than her and, and quickly it devolved. Because now she's on the defensive. And it was a very pleasant conversation, you know, to try and understand, you know, what's going on and family dynamics became, you know, defensive,
Vince Kern 13:54
yeah. And all of a sudden, you know, that, that that sort of wall gets put up. I mean, you're going along in love and everything and all of a sudden, boom, there's this wall you crash into, and, you know, we're all guilty of it. You know, the we are always I think there's a genetic disposition or the way we humans are built to want to have this agreement with other people. We want that information. We don't want to be ostracized writer, right? And you don't want to offend anybody. And as you said, you don't want to be labeled. So with with social media and the way you look at Twitter and everything else, right now, it's a cesspool of exactly what we as humans really don't want.
Joe Luther 14:39
Yeah, I mean, it can be right. Obviously, there's, there's good and bad to all social media. But when it becomes a platform for just throwing out jabs, like I did, like, Wikipedia is garbage. Like that's unfair, because Wikipedia is not garbage. I use it all the time. What I really meant to say is You have to be careful when you use Wikipedia. And that would have been a heck of a lot less positionally correct, on my part. And I don't know why sometimes it's so easy, especially in today's environment. To to get on the wrong side of that, and I think that's what's so important about the topic of today is, you know, why do we get so agenda driven? When it comes to, you know, being correct, like, we just we want people to agree with us, rather than, you know, just listen to what they have to say
Vince Kern 15:38
listening is such a such a underdeveloped tool that we have
Joe Luther 15:43
empathetically exactly whatever my sister was feeling, I always want to be empathetic towards her. But I wasn't doing that, because I was taking some sort of a high ground that I know better than her.
Vince Kern 15:58
I think that's a little different than, you know, you're a parent, and you're bringing up a child. And, you know, you're you in a sense, your positional correctness, there is almost a responsibility in some ways, right? So in a sense, you're responsible, and so that, that builds this thing. And you can see how a career or, or a sibling, you know, place in the family, you know, we talked about or being one's boss, or being one's boss, or being you know, I remember, you know, I was a journalist for many years, and I remember hearing people talk about something, oh, no, I'm, you know, I'm a reporter, I know, I've seen this and that, and it's like, you know, that's just that just shuts everything right down. It's
Joe Luther 16:41
almost because we're, I think, you know, like you said, we have a biological need to be heard and to be accepted. But we also have this underlying fear of being ostracized or rejected. And so with that, it's a form of just general insecurity that too many of us walk around with. And so when we get involved in these conversations, and it quickly becomes defensive, because we're letting our insecurities rule the conversation, rather than, you know, our original desire for love and, and, and free exchange of ideas,
Vince Kern 17:21
and you go from love to, you know, fight or flight in an instant, and you're gone, you know, so you have, you have all these things to be conscious of in and and I think, you know, how this can help us if we're conscious of that concept, if we if, if you will, of being positionally correct, you know, if we're aware of something, we can adjust it right, or, like,
Joe Luther 17:46
if we were able to slow down for a minute, when we see ourselves heading towards one of these conversations, and rather than dig into our position, whatever it may be boss, sibling, you know, scholar, just person who thinks he has the most experience in this topic. Rather than do it from that lens, do it with pause. And from a sense of being, you know, more open. In fact, when we were talking earlier about critical thinking, I was thinking what a what a nice change, it would be if we could say critical, open thinking, you know, because that's really what's critical right now is to be more open and more willing to exchange ideas, then dug in to our position, whatever it is.
Vince Kern 18:42
Yeah, you know, I was thinking about the results of hardcore positional correctness. You know, I mean, it's, some of it sounds so obvious, but, but, you know, it can easily result in labeling of anyone who, who doesn't, you know, isn't aligned with your position? I mean, it's demonization really, right? It enhances the tribalism. It just makes that so much more of a, you know, oh, well, you know, that person I forget about it, they're over out there. You know, that's my,
Joe Luther 19:11
yeah, they're on the wrong side of that issue.
Vince Kern 19:13
And in a way, it's, it's, it's a sort of a form of bullying. I mean, if you think about, you know, in the workplace, your boss, you know, yeah, you're one of those, you know, it is
Joe Luther 19:23
bullying, you're right, it is like bullying, because you want to be part of the group. And it doesn't really matter to you, if that leaves other people isolated and, and nobody really sets out wanting to do that. But when it comes to having an opinion about something, I think those internal needs and insecurities that we have, get in the way of what we really want. You know, I was thinking there's this phrase that is bantered around a lot I don't know if it's a Mark Twain quote or whatnot, but it's, it goes something along the line of it's easier to fool someone One than it is to convince them that they've been fooled. And I think it's obviously very true. Right, but But I think, you know, deep into that phrase is this idea of convincing somebody that they've been fooled? Well, nobody wants to be told that they've been fooled. And so when you get involved in these conversations, and you say, well, Wikipedia is garbage, I'm basically telling her she's been fooled, and she doesn't know what she's talking about. It can be anything it could be, it could be any phrase, where you're basically telling somebody that whatever it is, you've learned, you're wrong, or somebody's duped, you or you've been duped. And again, that comes from a place of this, you know, moral high ground or positional correctness that you you know, you've now looked at, I don't think we're looking to try in and start a new wave. And, and I don't think that was your intention with this idea of, of political correctness to start a new phrase out there, but but I think it is a an interesting way of analyzing what we do when we get involved in these social situations and talk about things, especially in this charged environment.
Vince Kern 21:16
Yeah, for me, it was a way of putting a name to something that is maybe a little bit more dynamic oriented than, you know, I mean, evangelistic, you know, you've got the neighbor who's just being evangelistic about this political position, whatever it is, you know, and they're just in and out, you know, and but
Joe Luther 21:37
we're not going to use it as a as a phrase like critical thinking or whatever, to say, Hey, you're just using positional correctness? No, the idea, I think,
Vince Kern 21:46
is to understand that it's there. And it can be this
Joe Luther 21:49
to help use it as a lens for yourself.
Vince Kern 21:53
Yeah, exactly. So that you're not putting, you know, that other parts of
Joe Luther 21:58
yourself in the position of, of doing what you didn't intend to do, which is, you know, putting people on the defensive,
Vince Kern 22:05
my older sister, whom I love very much posted something on Facebook the other day that I thought was just as just as I was thinking, as it often happens, you know, this spirit connects things in very synchronistic ways. And as I was thinking about this topic, she posted a meme. And in the words that said, Be careful not to dehumanize those who disagree with in our self righteousness, we can become the very things we criticize in others, and not even know it. So to me that positional correctness is a way of saying, Hey, Vince, you're, you're getting there, or just put a label on it, you know, like, I can be I know, when I'm cranky, I, you know, I know when I'm doing this, but, but it's got to take a lot of thought and sort of
Joe Luther 22:55
that was that was pretty deep of her to, you know, and that only deep it was brave, to kind of admit that. Well, it's, I always thought was that funny. Again, I'm reaching here, but it's something along the line of people saying, I don't like judgmental people. Right, you know, kind of pointing a finger back at yourself when you're making that statement. But here, she's basically saying be, be careful when in that is so true. When you when you point a finger out at others, you are pointing three back at yourself. And at the end of the day, the only thing we're really capable of, of controlling is our own self. And you can say, well, that person made me feel like this or that person is judgmental, or whatever. But typically, it's you being self judgmental or self critical. And it's yourself that is feeling that way, not somebody else, making you feel that way. Right. Right. That's so true, which is why I think your phrase is so helpful. In that it, it provides a lens, any other like, so we're talking bosses, and we're talking siblings, you know, that, that can be used use universally, across many spectrums, you talking about the neighbor, which is probably, you know, less charged, because it's easy to kind of drive by the neighbor and that meet eyes or
Vince Kern 24:22
build a fence. Yeah. But you know, that's fine to do that. Right. Right. Well, does proximity equal expertise, you know, I mean, hey, you know, or anything,
Joe Luther 24:33
and let me ask you, how do you think we could use this concept of positional correctness to make ourselves better to make the world a better place?
Vince Kern 24:44
Right. So how can how can I'm asking you, oh, well, thank you very much. I tried to get it back to you, but you wouldn't have it. How can we how can we how can Well, I think one is being aware that it's possible that that's where this position meaning of being correct is coming from. In other words, why do I? Why do I have such a need to convince this other person of my position? First of all, right, you know, do I want them to have my position just because I think I'm right. Or do I really want to have a conversation with that person? Really it? And really, what is meaningful conversation in the political arena anymore, anywhere in
Joe Luther 25:25
any arena? meaningful conversation is mutual growth, mutual respect, mutual, you know, inquiry for truth. And I use both my fingers up in the air when I said truth. And I, I think that's really what I know, you and I, since we were young kids walking our dogs back in the old neighborhood. That's what we've always, you know, wanted to find his truth. I think everybody wants to find truth, we just all have different ideas of what truth is. But if you come into a conversation, believing fully well, that you have the license and truth. You know, I would say that you come to that conversation, maybe with a full cup.
Vince Kern 26:10
Yeah, yeah. And the lens of how can it help is, you know, if you're looking to help the community, if you're helping, looking to help the fellow human spirits, you know, with just harmonizing that's kind of in opposition of that. Right, exactly. If I if I know what it is, then why do you even need to have a congress? Right? What's What's the
Joe Luther 26:34
good of, of having an opinion, and then running around to get everybody to agree with that opinion? How are you ever going to grow from that, unless you really believe that you have every last piece of information that you need for the rest of your life, which, if anybody does believe that? Well, they're probably not listening to this podcast
Vince Kern 26:56
true. And think about the range of discrepancy in the positive and negative energy of doing that, you're not creating positive energy, you're not using positive energy, and you're not allowing other people to have positive positive energy, you're really just throwing negative energy out
Joe Luther 27:17
there. I mean, I guess it's possible that you could have an opinion on something that is, in fact, true. And your goal is to help enlighten others with this, suppose it truth. But if you really want to do that, you don't want to do it in a, you know, a condescending way, because you have some sort of, you know, upper hand in the conversation, you want to do it in a way that's mutually nurturing, to the, to the participants in the conversation, especially when you're talking about family events. I mean, I think that's what we all really need to do. As we start exercising these social muscles in this post COVID world, is to take a little time to think a little more directly about where you're coming from, before you speak. Are you coming from a place of opinion? Are you coming from a place of, quote unquote, true, quote, unquote, truth? Are you coming from a place of love? If you're coming from those places? I guess that's a good starting point. But if you're reacting, and and you're insecure, and you're wanting desperately to be affirmed, you might want to take a pause, and take a deep breath and regroup a little bit before you say anything
Vince Kern 28:52
that's so hard. You know, honestly, most people are conditioned to talk fast to, you know, they're already thinking of their answer when they're hearing the other person speak. So listening becomes a critical, critical part of having any meaningful conversation. Isn't that the truth? Yeah.
Joe Luther 29:14
And it's it. I mean, it's hurtful. I know, when you always love it wins, especially at these large events. Hey, how you doing? And you start to tell them and the next thing you know, they're looking at somebody else? Yeah, right. Walk by, right. Do you really want to know I'm doing? No, but but Right. And I think that there's a sense of, you know, being present, and not only being present, but being humble. You know, you talked earlier, use the phrase D humanize. You know, we want to be careful, of course, not to dehumanize anybody, because where's the growth in that all your all you're doing is sending negativity out in the world and putting people on the ffensive is in no way, making the world a better place.
Vince Kern 30:03
Right? So in some cases, I think it might be better to just ignore the things ignore. So, you know, you're coming across that you're getting to that point in the conversation where you know, it's gonna get, and you're speaking with someone that, you know does not share the same opinion as you. And they
Joe Luther 30:24
may say something patently wrong. Like, they sent me a conspiracy Oh, it's rumble? Well, that's not a conspiracy. That's a platform. But you don't say that in a condescending way.
Vince Kern 30:36
Right. So, you know, the thing is, how do you exercise that skill of one? I mean, do you even at that point, sometimes I'm just I'm, like, done. I'm like, so how, you know, How's your new car going? And I'm trying to change the conversation right away from whatever it is we're talking about. But that can also seem a bit.
Joe Luther 30:53
Yeah, that's how you're
Vince Kern 30:54
Joe Luther 30:54
that's it or it's hiding. It's not really, you know, meeting the issue. directly, I guess it's better than getting in, you know, you know, a confrontive argument with somebody you love. But I think really what we need to do is, like you said, get back to that lens of, am I using some form of positional correctness, and stop yourself and say, what is my goal here? Is my goal here to force my views on other people? Or is my goal here to help make the world a little better place by by empathizing and listening? In? Yeah, if you can, you're gonna be in a much better place to, to help, you know, get your point of view across if you're doing it in a way that doesn't come from some, you know. dehumanizing, or like you said, you know, positionally correct point of view,
Vince Kern 31:55
right. And, you know, you might even learn something if you're talented, or talented enough or open enough, I guess, is a better way of saying it, to slowing down listening and trying to learn something from that other person. You know, what can I learn from this conversation?
Joe Luther 32:13
Yeah, you know, what do you think about I mean, you know, there's been this rule for I mean, this goes back as far as I was a kid. So at least 50, maybe 55 years, and I was paying enough attention at dinner tables, to want to have meaningful conversations at family events. But there's always been this rule. Oh, don't talk about religion or politics at at the dinner table. In today? Well, certainly religion isn't as big an issue as it used to be 50 some years ago, but politics? sure as heck is it's bigger and stronger than ever. And I think it's, you know, it's due to the fact that everyone, you know, has access to so much information now, where before, you know, you get news at six o'clock at night, and that would be the extent of it. Now, it's around the clock. So we all have these very strong and very emotional feelings about things. And, you know, I think it's, what I'm asking is, is it? Is it a good idea to not be willing to talk about politics? At the at the dinner table? Or is it really a better idea to maybe just adjust our lenses when we do talk about it?
Vince Kern 33:33
Well, for me, I know when I'm around a conversation that I don't necessarily want to be in and a lot, a lot of times that could would be politics at the dinner table. i My reaction is mostly to shut down. And then I don't feel good about that. Yeah. What does that serve? Right? And you have
Joe Luther 33:52
you have something inside of you that's worth hearing.
Vince Kern 33:55
Maybe it's sort of becoming I don't know, sometimes you can, you know, trying to just facilitate the conversation in a peaceful, meaningful way, as opposed to trying to jump in and make points. I mean, you know, I grew up in a family where my dad was a social worker, a high level mental health worker, and so, so it was my, one of my sisters, and, you know, very passionate about helping others. And so, you know, I would hear my dad and he was a very positionally correct, love person, aside from the fact that he was a father because he was so passionate about helping others. And yet, you know, I could never sort of have a conversation with him because I was more of a business person or business oriented, sort of a creative person. And it wasn't really a two way conversation.
Joe Luther 34:53
Oh, yeah, that's right. We weren't we were using examples of positional correctness, I guess, parent and child, child hopefully That's one of the strongest ones. Yeah, exactly. But again, but so, but maybe what you what you felt when you were a child is part of what triggers you to be quiet when things get a little politically charged, because you feel like if you disagree with somebody or get them on the defensive that you've done something wrong. And and I think rather than that, because that doesn't do the world any good, US shutting down because we're afraid of, you know, hurting somebody's feelings is not the answer. It's maybe the better way to look at is how can we communicate in a way that doesn't hurt somebody else's feelings?
Vince Kern 35:45
Right. Right. What is the conversation at the dinner table? How was that? What's the foundation of it? What's it? You know? Is it real? Is it somebody telling, you know, somebody's a
Joe Luther 35:55
dictatorial or is it collaborative? Right?
Vince Kern 35:57
And, you know, you got a lot of different things in that that's a whole nother dynamic for
Joe Luther 36:02
but I think that's I think we just touched down what you're saying with positional correctness, become sort of a dictatorial point of view, rather than a two way street.
Vince Kern 36:14
Yeah. And as I thought about this, to that element of everybody has such different experiences in life, that it's hard not to come from a point of positional correctness. Because if you are in this business, let's say you're a police officer, you see so much of, of, you know, and if you're a social worker that affects your view, cashier in a grocery store, you know, you see things that you just become passionate, right, people who deal with the retail for sure, yeah. And it's so it's hard not to have that sort of develop over time.
Joe Luther 36:51
But if you're going to grow in a conversation, and if it's going to be meaningful conversation, and your objective is to make the world a better place with your conversation, which I would submit, most people would say, that's what they want to do, when they enter into conversation. Maybe some people have the need just to be heard and don't really care if they're making the world a better place. But I think most people, at their core, want, whatever they do to make the world a better place. And if you can do that, in conversation, you know, obviously, that's a good thing. Or conversely, if your conversation is making the world, you know, less than a better place, then I think it's time to look at it in a different lens. As your positional correctness lens gives us the opportunity to
Vince Kern 37:44
do Yeah, positional correctness. That's an interesting concept. Like you said, we're not trying to coin a new phrase here or write a book, but we love talking about all things from the lens of how can this help? And how can these things may be made better? And I think,
Joe Luther 38:02
yeah, that's good. I don't know, this is a little bit of a riff and a little bit of a rant. But I think it was very interesting. And I'd be real curious to hear what our listeners think about it. When they, you know, there's a, there's a spot in our podcast where you can make comments, and we would love to hear your comments on, you know, first of all the the concept of positional correctness, and you know, how it relates to everyday conversations. And really, you know, what do What does anybody intend to do when they have conversation with people at family events or social events in general?
Vince Kern 38:37
Yeah, I think that about covers it for today. I think that's a great place to leave it.
Joe Luther 38:43
Well, I'm gonna go to the gym and continue exercising my social muscles. Now, Vince, and I'm going to do that with the extra barbell of positional correctness with
Vince Kern 38:52
me make sure that that barbell is positionally. Correct. So you don't hurt yourself.
Joe Luther 38:57
Yeah, exactly. Don't want to drop it on my dose.
Vince Kern 38:59
Well, thanks, everybody, for joining us. Thanks for listening. Joe. Thank you for being Joe. And,
Joe Luther 39:04
and you as well, Vince,
Vince Kern 39:06
we'll see you soon.
Joe Luther 39:08
Well, so wins another episode of Friends in wonder, we really want to thank you for listening. If you'd like to listen to more episodes, provide feedback, questions, or even suggest topics you'd like us to wonder about in future episodes. Be sure to check us out at friends in wonder.com. We'd also be grateful if you'd subscribe, like or share this podcast. Until next time, I'm Joe. And I'm Vince and we're friends in wonder